Interview w/Damian Hall (Full Transcript)

Introduction and Contact Information

• You're listening to Running Buddies, brought to you by Running Scared Media where every step has a story.

• I'm Jamie Roberts and this is the podcast we like to call a jog cast.

• Whether it's your first time out or you're a seasoned pro running buddies, find stories that are bigger than running.

• On today's show, we have a fantastic guest. He needs no introduction. It is Damian Hall.

• It took a little while to get him on an afternoon run, but he was gracious enough to find some time on one of his double run days to meet up with us, and then go for a run through a soggy, rainy day.

• So it was fantastic talking to Damian.

• We cover lots of topics. He's very passionate, especially talking about equity and some of his activism with the climate. So we'll get to that in just a second.

• If you haven't had a chance to give us a follow, do so on Instagram at Running Scared Media.

• Send us an email at the Running Scared podcast at gmail.com, or take a look at us on YouTube at Running Scared Media.

• Thanks for listening.

• And without further ado, here's our conversation and our run live from the Sauk Trail in England with Damian Hall.

• On today's show, we are extremely thrilled to be running with Damian Hall.

• Damian is a runner, father, activist, coach, columnist and author of In It for the Long Run and We Can't Run Away from This.

• It's been a while to try to get him on the show. We are so happy for him to be here.

• Uh, welcome to the show, Damian. Hi. Thanks so much for having me on.

• I hope you can hope you can hear me. Okay. It's a tiny bit windy here.

• That's okay. You know what? We, um. It actually sounds really good. So, you know what? We're gonna we're gonna jump right in, right?

The Current Run and Location Check-in

• So the first part of what we do here at Running Buddies is like, we are on the trail with you.

• We are running with you something that you love to do.

• So I'm just wondering, um, where are you today?

• So I'm just. I'm just on a short, uh, recovery run from my house in Corsham, uh, which is in, in Wiltshire, in southwest England, I guess near near Bath or Bristol.

• Um, it's not well, it's a perfectly lovely region. It's not particularly mountainous or even that hilly, really, but it's just it's just where I live.

• So it's. Yeah, it's a good spot.

• But yeah, I'm not technically on a trail right now.

• I'm actually by a road and I'm hoping to reach a bit of trail in the second.

• Uh, my, my parents are Scottish and I've actually been over to the UK. Yeah.

• Um, quite a few times. I remember we took a great trip down.

• Are you anywhere near Portsmouth? No, no. Not really. Okay, okay.

• Um, so I'm just curious, how long is the run going to be today?

• Um, I think, um, it's about this is it's actually my second run of the day.

• Um, Coach Roach, I'm coached by David Roach. He's actually giving me a double today.

• So this is meant to I did a workout earlier, and this is meant to be a sort of forty five minute easy recovery.

• Um, there aren't many days I do doubles, but I've got one today.

• Excellent. Is there is there something interesting about the the space that you're running in?

• Um, like, what do you see? What do you smell? What do you feel?

• Well, it's we're right in sort of deep mid autumn here.

• So I don't know if you could hear that, but I just ran over a loads of brown and orange leaves.

• Very wet leaves.

• Um, we have lots and lots of beech trees around here.

• So autumn is actually really beautiful for two or three weeks and you get lots of.

• Yeah, yellow and orange and brown, and there are leaves everywhere at the moment.

• Um, so that was quite nice. There's some more here.

• Yeah, there's lots of leaves, lots of leaves to run on.

• Nice. You know, I feel like in Ontario. We have, um, we just have a longer summer now, and and our winter, you know, just today is a great example of like how just how it comes quicker.

• Our, our autumn is quite short.

• But we do have that. Yeah, we do have that two to three week period where the leaves are just beautiful.

• They change colors. It's so nice to run and we've got access to so much forest space, open space.

• So it's it's really quite good.

Recommended Running Trails

• And it makes me think if somebody is coming down to your part of England, where is there some place that they should definitely go for a run?

• Is there a is there a famous trail? Is there an area that is just something that you really need to do? If you're on kind of one of those like truncations and you're exploring the the countryside?

• Yes. I mean the place, it's about an hour and a half from me, but the place I go to do my long runs quite a lot of the time is actually over in Wales, South Wales, um, and that's Bannow National Park.

• It used to be called the Brecon Beacons.

• Um, and they're not they're not kind of big mountains.

• I mean, the biggest one is sort of about eight hundred, I think, about eight hundred metres, but they're the best you'll get in all of southern England and Wales.

• And they are. Yeah, they're really good and they're really wild and rugged.

• Um, and then a bit closer to home, we have got a one hundred mile trail nearby called the Cotswold Way, which finishes near me down in bath.

• And that was actually where I did my first hundred miler.

• So that's quite nice. It's not. Yeah, it's kind of cozy hills, but don't underestimate them.

• There's lots there's lots of short, sharp climbs in them, but lots of lots of greenery and little villages.

• Um, I would say, yeah, people can pick between those two.

• Are they very busy? Would they be like runners all the time on them, or do you get a little bit of that kind of, um, isolation when you were out on those spaces?

• Oh good question. I think in our book there's one section around the biggest peak, which is really busy at weekends, but kind of either side of that.

• Yeah, you could not see hardly anyone all day, so you could definitely escape the crowds there on the Cotswold Way.

• It's probably more, yeah, people out doing little short day walks.

• I guess the Cotswolds are pretty, they are fairly popular.

• So you would find a few people doing short walks, but um, um, yeah.

• If you want to get away from the crowds, go to an owl or the Black Mountains as well, which is part of that.

• Amazing. Thanks. Those are those are good.

Body Awareness and Aging in Running

• I'm curious, you said this is your second run of the day, and I didn't have this in the the notes here, but I'm just gonna I'm just gonna ask, um, when you get out for.

• You said it was a recovery run in the morning or on your first run or this run.

• Um, what are you feeling for?

• Like, what do you. If you listen to your body, right? Because I, you know, when I go out, there's a couple of, like, indicators that I'm thinking of, but you're a much more higher level runner than I am.

• What do you. What is an indicator?

• What is something that you're going to be locked in on like, oh, this this might be I might have to dial it back a little bit. Maybe I can push it a little bit. What are the things you're looking for?

• Oh, what a good question.

• Um, well, so I'm, I'm actually a week today.

• I'm turning fifty, so, um, that is on my mind a little bit.

• And I suppose I'm hoping not to feel too knackered on my on my runs.

• So I did have a. Yeah, I had a workout this morning.

• Um, but for two or three years now, I guess I've learned, you know, I am getting a little bit slower, so I've learned not to, I suppose, you know, not to not to look at my pace, actually, and not to sort of overanalyze that too much and think about more how I, um, just a dog wanting to play with me.

• Um, I think I think, yeah. Trying to go back to that. Just that feeling of hopefully feeling relatively fresh, because that happens less and less, if I'm honest.

• Yeah.

• Um, but if not just remembering, you know, why you ran. Really? And yeah, the joy of the movement and being able to explore places and and just and feeling lucky because so many people, you know, don't have the health or even around the world, you know, the, the ideal situations in which they can go running freely.

• So remembering those things and then just usually that, yeah, when you zoom out a bit and usually that brings you back to, hey, actually I'm not as fast as I was, but you know, I'm in the outdoors and I'm healthy and things are good.

• And um, hopefully you get. Yeah, I guess I guess it must come back to enjoyment, right?

• It's gotta it's got to. Otherwise, why do we do it, I suppose.

• Good question. Yeah, I you know, it's funny, I just, um, I just turned forty five, and, you know, I've been running my entire life, and it's interesting.

• Kind of like, more of, like, a nebulous comment. I look for the same thing. Am I enjoying it today? Am I?

• You know my feeling. I'm not doing it. I'm, you know, a ton of races and effcts and all those kinds of things, but I honestly, um, I see, uh, you know, we have a friend of the pod, Mike Wardian, and he's fifty years old, and he's doing incredible things with, uh, with Teva and all the, you know, I just there's so many runners that are a little bit older that continue to do amazing stuff.

• So hats off.

Journalism Background and Ultra Running

• But I want to I want to kind of jump into, um, some kind of longer form questions to kind of get you thinking about a few things.

• And it's interesting. We've had some interviews where, um, you know, I've really kind of leaned into the past life of the runner and things that they've done and how they've leveraged those skills and things that they've learned into their running career.

• So, like, I know you were a published journalist and and then you became an ultra runner a little bit later on.

• How did that background in writing, um, how did that help you kind of approach intense training analysis, race strategy, like that kind of investigative writing.

• How did that help you prepare as you moved into ultra racing?

• Yeah, I think at the time I didn't realize how much it was maybe helping me.

• Whereas when I look back now, I can I can see what a huge help that might have been.

• So for example, my, you know, my very first ultra marathon was a magazine.

• It was going to be a magazine story.

• So firstly I had to finish it.

• Um, otherwise I'm pretty certain the magazine wouldn't have taken the story and I wouldn't have got paid and I would have.

• It wasn't necessarily about the money, but I was away from, you know, away from my young daughter for the weekend.

• And that had to count for something, you know.

• So and then also and let me think my next.

• Yeah, three of my next four races after that as well were also magazine stories.

• So I had the same sort of welcome pressure to think, well, I've got a this has got to count for something.

• But then also it enabled me to think, right, I'm fascinated in this.

• Which coach can I speak to about how do you train, what strength, conditioning, what what's the psychology?

• And I could turn all these into magazine stories.

• And I guess there's a natural curiosity in my mind that, you know, how do you train for this stuff?

• And this is sort of twelve, thirteen years ago when there wasn't as much information freely around, hardly any books on it.

• Um, not not actually not many podcasts either.

• Just just one that I remember.

• So it was quite a fascinating to sort of dig around and investigate, discover all these new races.

• So I think it really helped me, um, actually finish those big races.

• But also it meant, um, so my second race was one hundred K, my third race was one hundred miler, but partly because I knew the magazine they wouldn't like.

• Once you've done one hundred K, they're not very interested in you doing a fifty miler because there's not much there's not that much jeopardy in the story.

• They always need some jeopardy, like will the will the writer complete the challenge?

• Yeah, you need that in the story.

• Right.

• So so I jumped up and up and my fifth race was the Winter Spine Race, two hundred and sixty eight miles in winter.

• Well, as the name suggests.

• Um, and most people wouldn't escalate things that quickly, but I almost felt I had to, to, to, to get the stories, to get the work.

• Um, but really, it wasn't about the work at all, because you get you don't get paid much for these things, especially the spine race.

• You're away for five or six days and you're certainly not paid.

• You know, a good amount of money for five or six days.

• I don't even think my expenses were covered or anything.

• So, you know, you probably come home with a loss, actually.

• But but the but what's that what that's given me over time in terms of adventures and so on.

• You know, you can't put a price on.

• But absolutely. I think ultimately that yeah, the fact that these were often assignments really, really helped me and made me, I think it made me more serious than my training as well.

• You know, getting a coach early and stuff, which again, was a magazine story, like how do you how do you train for these things?

• Um, yeah, I think it really, really helped.

• I think I was quite, quite fortunate there.

Activism, Climate Change, and The Green Runners

• And then when does activism fold into the story here.

• And and was your activism always geared towards sustainability?

• Like I've done quite a bit of reading up on you.

• Um, you know, from the green runners and all the things that you're, you're involved with, um, sport washing and whatnot.

• We'll get into that later.

• But is that folded in later?

• Is that, is that, um, uh, amplified by the time spent running out in nature more.

• Um, can you talk about that?

• Yeah.

• Um, on the surface, it feels like that's something that's much more recent, just the last sort of three or four years.

• Really?

• Yeah.

• Um, however, when you look back through your life, I guess you see certain things, maybe certain values that your parents have passed on and stuff and, and certainly, you know, both my sisters have been quite I don't know if they'd call themselves activists, but quite sort of, you know, environmentally aware.

• And I was I was never really involved in that because it was what my sisters were doing.

• But then you reach a certain point and you see certain things going on in the world, and you kind of think, no, this isn't, you know, it's not right.

• And I suppose being a parent as well.

• And you can see the changing weather, um, you know, around the world and even here in Britain, you know, right now we're having we have we just had one of our warmest summers ever, and we're just and now we're having like two or three weeks.

• Well, it looks like two weeks at least of pretty much constant rain.

• Um, and yeah, we'd normally get rain around now, but the, the, the wetter, warmer winters that we were kind of predicted are definitely already happening to us here.

• Um, and that obviously that's far worse in other countries.

• But you can, I guess, having kids and thinking, actually, these governments aren't doing just as we speak.

• Um, cop Cop thirty has started in Brazil, and we know, like most activists are going to come away from that feeling, you know, desperate disappointment again.

• Um, because these governments and these and ultimately sort of big oil, you know, doesn't want to do what they, what they should morally do.

• Um, and just this.

• Yeah, this sheer desperation and, um, exasperation and feeling, you know, I got to do something.

• Got to do something.

• And I don't know, I mean, I think I've got clear ideas now what we've got to do, but at the time, I didn't really know what to do.

• I had some friends.

• It's actually a GB record breaking ultra runner called Dan Lawson and his wife had discovered a lot about the perils of sort of sportswear and the damage there, and they'd started talking about that, and that sort of galvanized me a bit, I suppose, and got me thinking about my own actions and, and, but then teamed up with them and ultimately the green runners came from that.

• Um, yeah.

• I mean, it's, it's I don't know, it's hard to, to know if we're doing exactly the right thing, but what what I found is the green runners only formed like three and a half years ago, and we've got over three thousand members around the world.

• So it definitely chimes with people and at least having that community around you thinking, lots of us care about this thing.

• At least that's something like that.

• That, um, helps me and I think a lot of other people.

• Monetization vs. Environmental Values (Sportswashing)

• If I'm actually going to jump to something if I could, because I want to position you as somebody who who is taking a stance in this, uh, in this arena, and certainly through my conversations with runners, my research, just just as I've seen the, um, um, you know, the confluence of, of a few things with the popularity of running really increasing, like, do you worry about profit monetization encroaching into the sport?

• Um, you know, and perhaps maybe shoving to the side environmentalism, sustainability, because, you know, as you know, I see, um, you know, runners being signed to, to more lucrative contracts, I see, or perhaps you can comment on this.

• Uh. The larger the sport gets, the prize money increases.

• Where money becomes central as a central driver to the to the growth of the sport.

• I worry, or I'd love to get your take on some of the things that you do.

• You feel like we might be going towards a place where, um, some of these things might be pushed to the side, or do you feel like they can rudder along together?

• We can. We can grow the sport. We can move it into a more professional sphere, more so than it has now, uh, and still keep our, our, our values intact.

• Yeah. That's such a zeitgeist zeitgeist question, isn't it?

• Because. Yes.

• Yeah. It's, um. Yeah, I think that's on a lot of our minds right now.

• And my mind goes straight to, I suppose.

• Um, yeah.

• And that's the, you know, that's the eye of the storm of our sport at the moment.

• And, you know, it's a race, The Mont Blanc race is the one I've done.

• I've done it four times.

• I've been in the top ten there.

• It was an obsession of mine.

• And it is a magnificent race.

• Um, and they've done a lot to professionalise the sport, you know, and they've, they've done a lot of good things.

• And they in some ways, environmentally, they were ahead of some of us like they, they made runners, you know, carry their own cutlery and, but really that, you know, that's nothing in the grand scheme of things now but and, but and they've been quite advanced with the transport around Mont Blanc as well.

• Um, you know, they run many buses and they ban cars from certain parts of the course.

• So that's great.

• Yeah.

• However, they've got a high carbon sponsor.

• So, you know, they're helping promote, uh, a brand that is causing a lot of harm in the world.

• So, you know, they're doing one.

• You know, we don't expect perfection.

• I don't I don't, you know, from anyone, really.

• That's not realistic.

• But there are absolute flags, flagship race and series of races around the world.

• And they're going, you know, their business model.

• I guess it's at least two.

• It's three things for me.

• Their whole series is based on, you know, ever expanding more races, more races, more races, and then a system that encourages people to fly abroad for races to get the stones and then the high carbon, you know, the high carbon sponsor.

• I'm really against that.

• Um, um, you know, it's sportswashing that that that that car manufacturer is not decarbonising, you know, well, over ninety percent of their vehicles are fossil fuel vehicles, and they're still creating them and knocking them out and promoting them and using our sport to promote them and sell more.

• Um, so it's and maybe that's the dichotomy of sorry, that rather the paradox of where we are, like they say, you know, we don't really know if they need that sponsor or not.

• I mean, our argument is if you have to align with unethical sponsors, maybe you shouldn't be that you know, quite that big.

• Could you be a little bit smaller without an unethical sponsor, but that's my fear and frustration.

• But in terms of, you know, providing an event that's world class, you know, there and the coverage, you know, and they're inspiring people, I'm sure, to get out and hit the trails.

• So they are doing a lot good.

• Um, but I worry.

• Yeah, that we're sort of in the pockets of the people doing the harm to the planet and, you know, some of the, um, some of the promotion around the race with the, um, car manufacturer has been, you know, pretty sort of disgusting, you know, aligning trail running with sort of, you know, driving up and down mountains and stuff.

• Um, and.

• Yeah.

• So it's pretty.

• Yeah.

• It's a paradox.

• It's a paradox.

• And it's, um, it's pretty unsettling to me, I suppose.

• Yeah, that's a great answer.

• There's, you know, um, you know, one of the things we're looking at kind of the larger stories, right?

• That's, uh, that's what one thing my partner Rob and I are after.

• And, you know, you look across an Instagram feed and you see some runners and honestly, they're in a different location every two weeks, right?

• There's more races, more time.

• And we've had some conversations.

• I'm not going to name them.

• But, you know, a lot of, um, a lot of that, that money, uh, that they may be getting, uh, through, through their own sponsorship is tied to going and doing as many races as we can or as they can.

• And then I think I read something somewhere where, like, Western states was essentially like the US World Championships of running.

• Right.

• And I just wonder until, you know, when is that sponsored by Ford or when, when, when does it get to that point where they see, like, um, you know, an opportunity there?

• And I just wonder what that, what that, that overall that overall kind of macro running infrastructure kind of looks like moving forward.

• But it's definitely not easy.

• Hello.

• Sorry.

• I thought that was you know, I just I just ran past a couple of people and they were talking.

• Just somebody.

• Somebody said, it's not that easy.

• I was like, it's not that easy to sponsor.

• I mean, that was exactly fitting.

• That was exactly fitting.

• It is a real it is a real dilemma.

• The sponsorship is the thing that catches me.

• And yeah, I do spot people on Instagram and you sort of, I don't know, in my head I do that a bit and then I try to sort of pull back and think, well, it's not.

• Of course people have influence, but it's not.

• It's not really individual actions that will decide this whole thing.

• It's more it's the bigger collective actions and the, you know, the sponsorship stuff and the, you know, pushing for system change, you know, like just if we could, you know, not have high carbon sponsors in our sport because I don't know, um, if you follow, you know, football or soccer and golf and cycling and like it's absolutely rampant in those sports.

• It is, it is and it's coming into our sport as well.

• And that's it makes me really sad that these companies are legitimizing themselves by being associated with this healthy, adventurous stuff that we do, and they're sort of piggybacking on it and making themselves look legitimate so that, yeah, that's a bigger concern to me.

• Um, but yeah, we're in a tricky we are in a tricky, a tricky stage.

• What I love I mean, there is some leadership out there.

• The ironically enough, the, um, uh, the Mont Blanc marathon, which is totally separate to Utmb.

• They've got a new policy where they really prioritize people who get there on public transport.

• Yeah.

• Um, and things like that.

• So there are some events and some companies sort of leading the way and showing, I suppose.

• Yeah, showing how things can be done.

• Um, but I guess I yeah, I don't, I try not to put too much emphasis on the individuals more on or at least individuals to come together.

• There's a nice line, you know, sort of shout at your politicians rather than your neighbors.

• Yes.

• Type of thing.

• Um, but yeah, it's a it's a frustrating, worrying time.

Equity and Into Ultra Charity

• I want to, um, I want to shift over kind of into the, the, the equity space because I again, I'm interested in your take on this.

• Um, I know, um, I know running is often like you talk about the democratization of running and the most equitable sport, but, uh, in your charity into ultra, it's it's aimed at promoting equity in running.

• And I think when I have conversations with people about running, there's there's often a very positive narrative associated with it, and rightly so.

• Um, you know, I find the running community to be accepting and welcoming that you've identified some areas where potentially there isn't there isn't equity in the sport.

• Can you explain what you mean by that?

• And, and maybe, um, drive down on some, some specifics?

• Yes.

• I get I guess I wish I'd, um, if I was at my desk, I would have whipped up some statistics for you.

• But because I'm out on a run.

• I haven't got them tanned, but but certainly, um.

• Well, if I, if I give you the behind the scenes story, you know, someone approached me who was a runner.

• I knew a little bit who kind of said, you know, I've got a bit of spare funds.

• I want to do some good in the sport.

• And so we sat down and brainstormed, and we came up with the idea that certainly ultra running in Britain anyway could easily be more diverse, like it's mostly middle age, middle class white men.

• Yeah, exactly like me.

• Um, and certainly, you know, female participation, participation from ethnic minorities, you know, is way down.

• Um, and then we kind of also observed, you know what, what's what's stopping people.

• And, you know, there are lots of that's a sort of multi that's a complex question.

• And I don't even feel qualified to, you know, to pretend to answer that when I'm not from those groups.

• But what we thought we could do Was help remove some of the financial barriers.

• Because, you know, the cliche is that all you know is a pair of shoes.

• But for most races over here, anyway, that's not true at all because they go, here's the mandatory kit list.

• You need a waterproof a pack.

• Yep, probably a watch to navigate from those watches.

• You know, they're hundreds of pounds.

• Um, you need more than one pair of shoes.

• And if you're quite new to the sport, you know, it probably took me a few years to accumulate that stuff.

• If you're quite new to the sport and then a race entry, you're probably looking at two thousand pounds.

• Um, you know, and some people, you know, there are quite a lot of people who that's off putting and that's too difficult for them.

• What we've actually found, we've helped over.

• We just had a meeting at the weekend, actually.

• It's really nice.

• We've helped.

• Um, I think it's one hundred and forty people now and we actually find a lot of people, well, they've had mental health battles or, you know, just life has given them a curveball or they'll be down on their luck.

• But but running is you know, we forget maybe when we're running regularly.

• What a powerful sort of health.

• What a powerful, positive thing it is for so many people and so many, so many of these people have sort of rediscovered themselves and got back up on their feet through running.

• Um, and we can help them sometimes by sourcing, sourcing some kit and getting them, you know, so many races have come to us and said, oh, we'll give you some free places, you know, and a lot of these people, yeah, they get back on their feet rediscovering themselves, getting some happiness, some confidence, some pride back by getting out and running regularly and maybe doing an ultra.

• Um, and yeah, I wish I had more stats on sort of yeah, female participants and diversity as well.

• I imagine you've got similar in North America, but yeah, yeah, there's some way to go there and it would be great to see, I suppose just more diversity on the stat lines, I suppose.

• Absolutely.

• Point taken.

• Like I just honestly, I love how you're talking about this because, you know, I'm in I'm in.

• Education and equity is a main driver for what we're we're trying to do.

• Right.

• Equitable outcomes for students, equitable outcomes for communities.

• And, you know, talking to some runners like I remember, you know, I had a conversation with somebody that we interviewed just a couple of months ago, and they deferred Leadville, not particularly just because of this, but the the costs involved in getting into these, not into the races, but to actually facilitate them when there's travel and there's lodging and there's food.

• Like this.

• These are things that you don't.

• Everybody knows that they're there.

• But but they're not talking about them.

• But you are.

• So I think that is um, I think that's great.

• And that's something that's really important.

• And the mental health piece I completely connect to, I know Culture City does, does work with that, how they leverage running in that space.

• So, um, I think if more equity can be infused into the sport, I think I think the better we are, the more diverse populations.

Coaching and Personal Values

• Last. Yeah. Last question.

• And, and, you know, just kind of like, um, just to tie it up with, uh, with your work with green runners and sustainability as a coach, are you, are you infusing that ideology, like, into your coaching sustainability, or is that left to, um, you know, I suppose if someone is coming to you for coaching, they understand your value system and and they probably have that aligned.

• Is is that something you're actively I don't want to say push pushing in your in your coaching.

• Or do you leave that up more to the to the participant.

• Are you kind of fueling plan this is what you're doing or is it more of a holistic model?

• Oh yeah, that's a great question.

• A friend of mine was getting into coaching recently, and they who's a fellow co-founder of the Green Runners and they sort of phoned me up and asked me about this.

• And it made me realize, yeah, I don't very directly bring that into my coaching.

• I'll tell you one example, though, I did, I did.

• Have you heard of this race?

• I think it's called The Seven.

• Oh, What's it called?

• Yeah, it's the seven marathons on seven continents in seven days.

• Yeah, I've heard a lot about that recently.

• Yeah, well, someone approached me.

• Yeah.

• Like I said, I try not to put too much sort of pressure and guilt on individuals, but, um, but I do think if someone is probably, probably if someone's planning to fly, I don't know, three to five times a year, they're probably not going to approach me for coaching.

• I mean, I'm not against flights.

• You know, I've reduced my flights.

• I still there's still one race I would fly to and I do still very occasionally fly.

• So I'm not anti flying.

• Um, and I'll leave that up to an individual to decide.

• But chances are if someone's planning to fly five times in a year, they probably wouldn't approach me.

• But someone did approach me for that race.

• And I did say, look, I'm really sorry I did.

• I just can't, I'm just too against that.

• That particular race, that's just too much.

• Um, and so that's one example.

• Other than that, though, I sort of, I don't know, I like to put my ideas out there and through the green runners and so on.

• But I don't like to sort of What's the word?

• Yeah, I guess too much pressure on individuals.

• Um, but I do find a lot of, you know, runners come to me.

• You know, ultrarunning has a high degree of high percentage of vegans anyway, for example.

• But I don't push, you know, I don't push vegan fueling on other runners.

• I don't say you shouldn't really fly to another race.

• I just leave that up to I leave that up to people I don't want to be.

• Well, I want to be annoying, but I don't want to be annoying to other runners.

• I want to be annoying to car manufacturers and high carbon sponsors, I guess is the is the crux of it.

• That's what it comes down to.

• Yes.

• So I don't I don't push it that much.

• I leave people to make their own, their own decisions.

• Um, um, I did ponder, I did ponder like, should I have a cap on how, you know, would I only coach someone who flies, you know, twice a year or something?

• And I, I chickened out.

• It's the truth, I think.

• Yeah.

• No, I'm, I'm happy with I think where I am, like, yeah, I put my ideas out there.

• Um, and I let you know.

• Yeah.

• I don't want to be two finger pointing at individuals, I don't think I don't think that.