Interview w/Michele Graglia

n today's show, we're running with Michelle Gradlia, an ultra marathoner, an author, coach, a former runway model.

Michele Graglia (02:33.574)

i'm already running

Jamie Roberts (02:49.577)

and an adventurer who has completed and won some of the baddest and most extreme races on the planet. Welcome to the show, Michelle.

Michele Graglia (02:58.038)

Jamie, it's a pleasure to be here with you today.

Jamie Roberts (03:00.959)

Yeah, you know what? It's it is fantastic to have you on. You know, when we're kind of looking to curate our roster for people that we want to speak to, we want to have like a diverse cross section of individuals. And you certainly hit the mark on that. And, know, one of the things that that stood out to me was the Badwater win in 2018. I want to kind of get into that. That's an incredible race and incredible finish result that you had there. So we'll get into that a little bit later. But yeah.

Thanks for joining us, it's amazing. So we do this in sort of two segments here, right? We do like some quick hits just to find out like where you're running, what's happening, and then we go into sort of some longer form questions. So where are you today?

Michele Graglia (03:41.003)

Great.

So I am in Prato Nevozo, which is a beautiful ski resort in the southern part of Piedmont in the Alps. And it's just a gorgeous day today. Lots of snow, plenty of sun. And I'm enjoying this shakeout run after a pretty heavy session of ski alps, ski mountaineering earlier this morning.

Jamie Roberts (04:11.391)

Amazing. know, just as you started speaking there, I heard this like this very light breeze of wind sort of cascade behind you in the back. was the perfect. It created the perfect portrait for the listeners. Right. So so that's amazing. So you said it's a shakeout. How long you to go for today?

Michele Graglia (04:19.221)

Yep.

Michele Graglia (04:23.926)

range.

Michele Graglia (04:27.628)

About seven to eight miles, something slow pace just to throw in an extra hour, hour and 15 minutes. Yeah.

Jamie Roberts (04:37.921)

Amazing. what is, I know you kind of, you sort of, to give us an idea, descriptive of what is around you, but what is something interesting about your specific space, the place that you're in right now? If that's like a, if it's a trail, what is something interesting about it?

Michele Graglia (04:56.393)

Well, it's covered in snow. We've been getting an insane amount of snow in the Alps this year and it's just stunning. There's no, here, as I said before, as before we started the interview, it's either up or down, so there's no real flat sections and it's perfect for training and for conditioning for mountain races.

Jamie Roberts (05:26.025)

Amazing. if, so if, if there's a question we always ask almost like if you're going to different locations, you want to find, you know, the best restaurant for a meal that you might want to have. If you're coming into your, to the town that you're in or, or the, the surrounding area, is there a particular trail that you just need to go and run if you're into trail running or, or are they just all fantastic?

Michele Graglia (05:49.355)

Well, it's pretty much amazing all around, but there is the one mountain here called Mondole, which is a gorgeous rocky mountain. it's 4,500 to 5,000 feet gain in about, let's say, three and a half miles. So it's mountain terrain, lots of vert.

Lots of technicality and to me it's one of the go-to when I come up here. Of course right now it's swamped with snow and so when I go up it's with skins, know, backcountry skiing type of Yeah.

Jamie Roberts (06:30.721)

Yeah. Yeah. You know, a question that when I'm talking to people that are up in the mountains, I always ask them, or I always forget, does it sort of, um, does, is there a variation between kind of single track and then, and then wide trail, or is it mostly really narrow? I, if you could kind of give the listener an idea of when you're going up the, up the slopes, right? Is it, is it quite narrow or can it, can it get wide in areas or is it a little mixture of both?

Michele Graglia (06:55.882)

Well, you know, yeah, it is a mixture of both. The Alpine country lives and thrives of this. There's a big mountain culture up here, where there are people skiing, running, mountain biking, paragliding, hiking, whatever. These mountains are swamped with people. So you can literally choose your trail. You can go through...

Jamie Roberts (07:09.942)

Yeah.

Michele Graglia (07:23.962)

nice comfortable wide what we call like you know fire roads type of thing or you can go through the slopes where you can hit sometimes 40 45 sometimes even 50 grades and or yeah and or you can get on more technical single trails so you can literally pick your pick your trail pick your way up the mountain

Jamie Roberts (07:38.581)

my gosh.

Michele Graglia (07:51.516)

And so it also helps when it comes down to training because at times you can go harder on steeper and or like I'm doing right now choose a more it still goes up but it's a more windy comfortable let's say 10 to 15 percent grade where you can actually jog and it can be a great option for know shakeout runs or pleasant hikes let's say

Jamie Roberts (08:20.557)

You mentioned it can be swamped with people. I'm wondering, is there any kind of localism with trail running in these areas in terms of people that are coming in from out of town, out of country really, that are kind of coming into train? Or do you find the community pretty welcoming, even though there can be a huge influx of people?

Michele Graglia (08:39.849)

absolutely welcoming. here these towns thrive and live thanks to tourism, to people coming in for either skiing, snowboarding, running, whatever. And so the whole, it's not just a specific community. It's not just the skiing community. It's not just the running community. The whole town, the whole community, it's the mountain community. So the

the places, the restaurants, everything is very welcoming, very involving. There's a lot of camaraderie, there's a lot of support. You're out on the trails, everybody kinda cheers you on, whether you're running six minute mile or 16 minute mile. And so it's like, it makes the whole experience that much more enjoyable, because in a way, you thrive off of that energy.

Jamie Roberts (09:40.789)

course, you talk about community. I want to shift gears. I want to talk about a different kind of community. I want to talk about your family and your childhood. And I want to talk about before the running and the modeling. What was, what was it like growing up? Did you, was it an active family? Did, did your parents run? You talked about the culture being an outdoorsy culture. Is that something that you were exposed to from like very early on?

Michele Graglia (10:06.109)

Yeah, absolutely. I'm very grateful for that. I'll tell you the truth. I started skiing when I was two and a half years old. I could barely walk, but I was already skiing. My father, yeah, exactly. I mean, it's like, know, my father has always been like huge skiing fan, cycling fan. So from a very young age,

Jamie Roberts (10:18.657)

It's like skating here. It's like ice hockey here in Canada.

Michele Graglia (10:33.702)

Both my sister and I were introduced to the mountains, skiing in the winter, hiking in the summer. My sister actually lived in Canada for many years. She was a professional snowboarder with Salomon. yeah, both of us, we kind of got, you know, we were instilled that connection, passion, respect for the mountains from a very young age. And that, of course,

Jamie Roberts (10:46.622)

really? Wow.

Michele Graglia (11:01.786)

in many ways influenced both our journeys in life because you for me he kind of poured into the the whole ultra running trail running scene and for her into the snowboarding scene so you know as I said I'm very grateful for that.

Jamie Roberts (11:21.051)

You know, it's, I know that the, your modeling experience is kind of well-documented. So I want to set up a question here to take us into, you know, you're, you're running now. I know, because with Mountains Within, that was a, that was a beautiful piece. And I had a look when I was doing some research, like you had a very unexpected fall into the world of modeling and high fashion. and then you talk about, you talk about the adventure into the unknown.

Like I think even just for what you're saying, but even just in those, in those clips and what I was reading, it's like how you were saying it. So do you think the unexpected nature of becoming a model and throwing you into the unknown sort of parallels ultra running the possibility of like searching for unknown through, the races and the trail races that you've done. Like I, I, I want to open that question up to you because sometimes there's these pivotal points in life where.

It can really change things and put things on an axis. So I'm wondering how much of that experience has influenced your running and your thirst for adventure.

Michele Graglia (12:29.105)

absolutely. I mean, just like as you said, it's very much about adventure, about taking on what you don't know, know, like kind of venturing into the unknown for real. So I think it's always been a great part of my attitude and or philosophy in life, being drawn to taking on challenges that I'm not quite, you know, familiar with.

but that I'm fascinated with and kind of taking the step, that leap of faith in a way, and seeing where that new path may lead. And I mean that in a very honest and truthful way because I guess it's part of my, an inherent part of my being, of my soul, wanting to discover new things. I think there's a great sense of...

Jamie Roberts (13:04.98)

Yeah.

Michele Graglia (13:27.751)

It's all driven by a great sense of curiosity and that always kind of fueled that passion and fuel whichever endeavor I took on in life. I definitely always took the road less traveled and I always wanted to feel a sense of challenge to see where I can go, how far I can take it and

Jamie Roberts (13:31.646)

Okay.

Michele Graglia (13:56.633)

In a way or another, it was of course challenging. Well, in many ways it was challenging. But at the same time, he always opened the horizon to incredible opportunities, to live incredible experiences. And so to this day, I still try to take the road less traveled.

Jamie Roberts (14:19.849)

I know, I think that's, that's great. I hear that a lot and you're articulating it so well. Think about, you know, your start in modeling. Think about your first ultra marathons that you ran. Can you parallel any, any of the challenges? there any similarities between the two? Did you learn anything from the modeling experience that has helped you in ultra running? I know those are two sort of polar things in terms of what's happening, but, you know, often, often we find.

Michele Graglia (14:45.08)

Jamie Roberts (14:48.561)

you know, sort of symmetry and things that are very different. So I'm wondering if you could comment on that.

Michele Graglia (14:54.534)

Well, I think, as you said, they were definitely polar opposites in terms of like even energy that comes from it. But I can say a common ground was definitely the commitment and the dedication to the craft. Because of course, muddling is a very superficial and luxurious type of world, flashy.

Jamie Roberts (15:02.431)

Really,

Jamie Roberts (15:12.971)

Yes.

Michele Graglia (15:24.3)

world but industry but in during that time I learned or I kind of refined the art to be dedicated to the craft when it comes down to self-care training taking care of my body being on top of my nutrition being very responsible when it comes down to you know the professional side of it

being on time, being committed to the job, being committed to the clients, being pretty much on top of my game. And that when I started running was a, I don't want to say easy transition, but because of course the training is completely different. The approach is completely different. The mentality, all the philosophy, but the commitment to the craft is something that I poured back into it.

Jamie Roberts (16:02.827)

Yeah.

Michele Graglia (16:23.973)

and he paid off in a great way. And so yeah, that's pretty much the one thing that I can say. He helped me to continue the journey.

Jamie Roberts (16:36.821)

Yeah, you're outlining the kind of and identifying that responsibility, right? So, absolutely. So take us through, what's the inflection point, right? Like that sort of, when the equilibrium changes from modeling to running, when do you start to shift your focus on ultra running and that sort of transition into that more focus? Or is that focus still ongoing or that transition?

Michele Graglia (16:41.561)

Yeah, exactly.

Michele Graglia (17:07.685)

Well, that transition kind of happened in 2011 when I was kind of falling off the modeling more on a personal level than on an actual professional level, if it makes sense. I just couldn't. Yeah. So I started running towards the end of 2010 and then discovered ultra running and I kind of jumped.

Jamie Roberts (17:26.591)

No, it does. It completely does.

Michele Graglia (17:37.834)

on that right away but of course you know I still had my profession my career that kind of continued for a few more years before I was able to kind of say okay you know what I'm done with this I'm gonna turn this page who actually closed that book and open a whole new one

Jamie Roberts (17:56.001)

It sounds like your heart wasn't in it at the end.

Michele Graglia (18:00.677)

or definitely not. I I was definitely trying to escape that world for a good few years before I was actually able to close that chapter because, you know, I was still living in New York. I still had the bills to pay. I was still committed to my agency, my agents, my agent. And, yeah, you know, that was what was paying the bills and allowing me to live.

Jamie Roberts (18:18.399)

Yeah.

Michele Graglia (18:29.284)

external lifestyle. So, you know, when I started running back in 2011, 2012, 2013, I did not, you know, of course I was still a newbie and it took a few years before I started creating, let's say, I don't want to say, I don't want to sound like, you know, bragging, but in a way like creating a name for myself, picking up.

Jamie Roberts (18:56.533)

Yep.

Michele Graglia (18:57.816)

picking up sponsors and eventually being able to live off of it. And we need to also be honest, you know, the community, the sport was not at the same level where it is right now. We're talking about, yeah, decade and a half ago, you know, there were like very, very, very few people that were able to have contracts and more so contracts that allow

Jamie Roberts (19:11.753)

That's a great point. Yes, that's a great point.

Michele Graglia (19:26.883)

that will allow you to live off of it. Because you know, you can get ambassadorships and get a pair of shoes here and there, but you know, those don't pay the bills, you know what I mean?

Jamie Roberts (19:37.729)

It's a great point. just, you know what, wanna push on just on one thing and then I'm gonna pivot to something else. you talk about the modeling, you talk about self care, you talk about all the responsibility that comes with that. Is the self care culture and modeling, is there a running culture in there or is it more of like a gym culture? Like you have to go to the gym and yoga or is there a running culture that you found? Did you find a?

Michele Graglia (19:40.162)

Yeah.

Jamie Roberts (20:06.045)

even a community within a community in that space or were they separate for you?

Michele Graglia (20:12.58)

Like you mean here or back when I was in the US?

Jamie Roberts (20:14.665)

No, just when you went in in New York.

Michele Graglia (20:18.113)

Well, when I first started, it was definitely more of a gym culture for me, because coming from the modeling world, I was definitely more dedicated to the shaping of the body rather than the performance of the body. So for me, for a very long time, it was very much a solo trip. If you understand what I mean, it's like I started running.

Jamie Roberts (20:33.622)

Yeah.

Michele Graglia (20:47.551)

I did not know anybody that was running. I did not enter any communities for a very, very long time. So for me, that running journey into the community and thriving off of the community support didn't start for a few years until I moved to California. And that's when everything changed. The whole energy changed.

Jamie Roberts (20:53.738)

Okay.

Michele Graglia (21:14.978)

The whole understanding of what I was doing changed because for the first time I actually met my own, you know what I mean? I was like, okay, here are people that understand why I'm doing what I'm that do the same thing, that have the same perspective, they have the same philosophy. And so for me, it was like a change in gear, not just in terms of running physically, but also mentally.

Jamie Roberts (21:23.444)

Yeah, you.

Michele Graglia (21:44.893)

philosophically.

Jamie Roberts (21:46.849)

So let's go there. You moved to California. You start running a little bit more frequently. You become an author in 2017. I'm curious about writing of the book and getting running more sounds like getting centered and maybe even being happier. I don't want to speak for you, but it sounds like, you really went one chapter closed, another one opened again. Did you always want to like, did you see yourself as a writer? Did you, is this something that you were just having so much fun and enjoying kind of this new, this new

in your life, you wanted to share it with others? How did the book come about?

Michele Graglia (22:20.205)

So just like many other things in my life, it happened by chance. Believe it or not, but I definitely got a good experience and I got some good results under my belt in those years. And it happened by chance in a way that I became friends with this very, I don't wanna say famous, but very well known

Jamie Roberts (22:24.934)

Yeah.

Michele Graglia (22:50.314)

sport photographer. name is Dino Bonelli. Him and I shared an incredible amount of traveling experiences. He actually crewed for me a bad water in 2018 when I wanted, but rewinding back to 2016, he made a like nonchalantly, he made his introduction.

Jamie Roberts (23:07.659)

Amazing.

Michele Graglia (23:18.644)

with this guy called Folco Terzani. And Folco is one of the most known, famous author in Italy. He comes from a lineage of writers. His father was a very popular war reporter, which wrote some of the most amazing books in Italian literature. When it comes down to philosophy,

and discovering of the self, he's the guy, he's the go-to. And I read all his books when I was a kid. And so when that email came through and Dino made that introduction, I was like, you know, I couldn't believe it. And, you know, at the time I was living in California and Falco used to spend the winters over there in Malibu.

And he loved to run, the connection was easy. He's like, you guys connect, go out for a run and see what happens. And what happened is a beautiful friendship was born. just like two good friends running on the trails, sharing life stories, sharing our attitude and understanding of life, really.

He was very much, he became very fascinated about my decision and switch in life from that, let's say glistening and, you know, flashing lights world of the, you know, modeling and deciding to take the dirt roads, dirt trails and take on this for many not understandable.

Jamie Roberts (25:01.909)

well

to take the road trails and take on this for

Michele Graglia (25:15.681)

decision of going that direction. one day he was like, you know what, I want to write an article on your story. And that article was published a week later on the first pages of Vanity Fair, which I kid you not, not even 12 hours after, no, not even two hours, sorry, not even two hours after that.

Jamie Roberts (25:29.153)

published a week later on the first pages of the Spanish Fair.

Michele Graglia (25:45.628)

article came out I was actually in Milan at that time and I receive a call from the the main editor of Sparlin and Cooper which is a very popular editing company out here and and they were like you know what we love the story if you guys are on board we are willing to give you a contract to offer you a contract to write

Jamie Roberts (25:58.113)

you

Yes, yep.

Michele Graglia (26:14.954)

to know more about this story and to write a book together. And so I was like, you know, like Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, like I got a golden ticket. And I was like, I ran back to Folk and I was like, we got a contract. For him, you know, for him, was like normal. But for me, was like once in a lifetime opportunity to share my story and more than anything, to write a piece.

with this guy which I admire for pretty much all my life. So that was a life changing moment for sure.

Jamie Roberts (26:53.308)

This is an incredible story and just, you know, I'm putting, honestly, I'm putting together the timeline of just how things are happening for you and you're not even 40 years old yet. Like, you know what mean?

Michele Graglia (27:03.615)

No, no, definitely. I was actually 32, going on 33, yeah.

Jamie Roberts (27:10.081)

Yeah. Oh man. So once the once the book gets going, you know, how is that? You know, that's clearly another challenge. I've spoken to people that have written books before and they always talk about just how much I don't want say train how much more work it is than they thought it was going to be, because I think they all going into it thinking it's going to be, you know, this this monstrosity of a challenge. But how is the writing of it for you? You know, what like the hours, the time, I know the editing and making sure that, you know,

How did you kind of navigate that?

Michele Graglia (27:42.953)

So it was incredible. I tell you, it was an incredible experience. Very much like I felt like I went to a shrink and I just poured myself out and I just opened myself raw. I shared the good and the bad and the ugly. And Falko and I decided to do it in a very...

I'm filtered away. So the idea was for him and I to just sit together for weeks, months and every day share a story, share a pivotal time, pivotal story in my life. Why I decided to go that way, what happened in Miami, what happened in New York, why I decided to start running, what brought me to...

start doing ultra marathons and of course, you know, some, we share some of the most iconic races that I did at a time, including the ultra Milano San Remo, the Yukon, the bad water. And then the actual writing was his job. So the actual piecing and editing was all in his craft. And when the book came out,

Jamie Roberts (28:53.761)

Yeah.

Michele Graglia (29:08.946)

You know, we had an amazing opportunity. It was published in Italy initially in 2017.

Michele Graglia (29:25.439)

And it was just an incredible opportunity to... did I break out for a second?

Jamie Roberts (29:30.123)

there it is. Okay. Yeah.

Yeah, no, it's okay. It's okay. It was five seconds. So it's, it's, but yeah, you're good.

Michele Graglia (29:36.474)

So, you know, it was just an incredible opportunity to open up to, you know, it is such a blessing to be able to share your story and in many ways inspire others through your understanding. And as you said, you know, I was still very much a young person, 33 years old.

Jamie Roberts (30:05.91)

Yeah.

Michele Graglia (30:06.244)

But those choices in many ways shaped my life in a way that allowed me to live life on my terms, of course, but also live some of the most amazing experiences that I could ever even have dreamed of. And so when these stories reached people and

Jamie Roberts (30:18.742)

Hmm.

Michele Graglia (30:34.102)

You, I still to the day, I still receive messages of people saying, you you, you changed my life. I started running thanks to you. And you know, it's empowering. It's such a positive energy that still gives me in many ways purpose to the day. And once again, these are one of the, the, the moments and experiences in my life that I'm the most grateful for.

Jamie Roberts (31:00.801)

Yeah. Just honestly, just even speaking with you, you can feel the, can hear the passion and the positivity and, you know what I mean? To me, it sounds like there's a lot of resilience there as well. Um, and I, know, you said, uh, you talk about, you know, inspiring for running and, I want to, I want to kind of talk about the running, the book comes out and then, you know, by doing some research 2018, 2020, you tackle some like just incredible.

events and you do well and you win. Moab, Badwater, crossing the Atacama, the desert. These are really extreme races and I need to know, well, I'm curious and the listeners are as well, what changed for you in that time? I'm going to assume the dedication kind of ratcheted up a notch.

Michele Graglia (31:33.55)

Yep. Yep.

Jamie Roberts (32:00.701)

But in that little period, you still, you know what mean? You were racing other races, you were racing like frequently, and those three races were in like a five or six month span, which is incredible. What is happening with you and your craft and the craft of running during that time?

Michele Graglia (32:18.042)

I think everything kind of lined up in terms of my vision, the opportunities that I had at that time to dedicate myself wholeheartedly to the training, to the craft. And when you do that, things kind of align, you know, in terms of like the visualization and the manifestation, I believe.

You know, I do yoga, I do meditate, I tend to visualize and hopefully manifest that energy. And I was able in those years to come to free, you know, to make everything come to fruition. And because everything was aligned, everything was exactly where I needed to be. I was exactly where I wanted to be and I was exactly who I wanted to be. So I was...

surfing that wave of positive energy and I felt blessed, grateful, aligned and the purpose was just flowing. I was flowing with the purpose of why I was doing what I was doing. So everything kind of clicked and it was probably the best time in my life because everything was kind of effortless.

Jamie Roberts (33:46.849)

Listening to you in the story, like there's opportunities that's presented itself to you. I can see that, right? I can see that. And the listeners will, but there is a drive about you and these opportunities while presented, you don't succeed in them unless you're driven to succeed in them. what's your motivation with these races, these huge, massive races, everything falls into place, but what's motivating you?

Michele Graglia (33:51.628)

Yuck. Yuck.

Michele Graglia (34:04.874)

absolutely.

Michele Graglia (34:15.832)

To me it's always been, I circle back to the beginning, to me it's always been about, it's always been driven by curiosity and finding out what's possible. I do these long races because I want to see where I can go, how far I can take it. But water of course has its own story because it is the race that inspired me from the very beginning.

Jamie Roberts (34:37.8)

Ugh.

Michele Graglia (34:44.856)

It's almost like in 2018 when I won it, to me it was the closing of a perfect seven year cycle that began in a very negative, treacherous time, depressing time in my life when I was in New York reading that book, the Dean Karnas's book where he was talking about bad water. And seven years later, finding myself crossing that line at the Whitney portal.

Jamie Roberts (35:05.663)

Yes.

Michele Graglia (35:15.166)

arms up, some of my best friends around me was just the culmination of that and the closing of that circle and the crowning of probably the biggest dream in my life. And that kind of allowed me to feed more into it because I was actually, know, you can believe you can do things, but then until you don't do it, you you don't know. But then when you actually reach that goal,

You're like, okay, I am actually capable of doing it. So let's see where, you know, where, where I can go now. And if this is not the limit, where is that limit? So once again, curiosity, once again, adventure, once again, exploration, not of places, but of our own potential. Well, my own potential. So that's why right there on a whim, I was like,

I always had this crazy dream of running across these, most extreme environments on the planet. And the first one that came to mind is the driest desert on the planet. Let's go to Atacama. I got a team ready and less than a month and a half after winning bad water, I was running 1000 kilometers across the Atacama desert in eight days and a half, three marathons a day.

Jamie Roberts (36:34.957)

It's insane. That is it's wild. I so we did, you know, talking about runners that do extreme distances. We did a piece with Mike Wardian last year and it was on it was on Badwater. We called it Inferno. So we did like a 60 minute audio drama. We interviewed him and then we we sort of docudrama the whole thing. It's really quite cool. Not self promotion there, but you know, it's it's so funny. Some of the things that he would tell us he used to

Michele Graglia (36:47.896)

amazing.

Jamie Roberts (37:04.865)

train for bad water with like a, you know, like a vacuum cleaner with hot air blowing on his face. He used to go for bag runs while hung over just so he could be dehydrated. I he he he's told us he's told us some of just the craziest things of that race. Can you give me what is what is the one thing if it was the heat or if it was the the climb or if the what was the one thing about bad water that either surprised you or you were just like,

Michele Graglia (37:10.102)

Yep, yep, yep, yep.

Michele Graglia (37:14.974)

my God.

Jamie Roberts (37:34.73)

my goodness, I cannot believe this is happening.

Michele Graglia (37:38.24)

Well, I tell you the truth. I ran my first bad water in 2016. yeah, so when I went back into it and I did everything wrong, everything I could do wrong, I did wrong in 2016. I finished 25th, which is still, I still finished, but I finished badly. I finished literally crawling. I was in 25th position, which is okay.

Jamie Roberts (37:45.409)

so you had some experience. Okay.

Jamie Roberts (38:00.511)

Yeah, that's exactly.

Michele Graglia (38:08.054)

but I knew that I could do better and so when I went back in 2018 to me it was like I know exactly what I need to do and I just need to stick to the plan and just follow you know just put a foot in front of the other and and just get to the finish line and to me there was not one moment in that race where I had

an ounce of fear or doubt. To me it was just like, just go, you know what you need to do. And I was just on top of the game from the very first step to the very last. I had an amazing team that allowed me to do that because they were on top of their game as well. And we actualized that vision perfectly. I cannot say it was not hard, but there was not a moment where I had an ounce of doubt.

And it was beautiful. It was a beautiful race from the beginning to the end. The heat, of course, was crazy. You we started in 2018 when I won it. I tell you this. It was the hottest year on record. So it was the hottest bad water ever. We started. You speak Celsius, right? So it was it was forty six degrees at 11 p.m. at night when we started.

Jamie Roberts (39:28.754)

Yeah, we're Celsius.

Michele Graglia (39:36.917)

46 and we reached during the day when I went through Panamian Springs, which is right in the middle of the day we reached 53.8 which is almost 54 degrees. I mean it was just like hell, but I did not feel anything. I was just like we had an amazing cooling strategy. We had we had like, you know, it was like a coral like a team effort.

Jamie Roberts (39:51.81)

my god.

Michele Graglia (40:05.369)

and everything just clicked. And so when I finished that race, to me, was just like, we freaking did it. And it's just the most glorious feeling you can have in life, I promise.

Jamie Roberts (40:07.254)

in it.

Jamie Roberts (40:13.185)

You

Jamie Roberts (40:17.872)

You need blocks of ice. Lots, lots of ice, man.

Michele Graglia (40:20.341)

Oh my God, I went through in between like drinking and everything. went through 36 liters of water.

Yeah, 36 liters.

Jamie Roberts (40:31.819)

That is, I can't even imagine that. You know, I'm in Southern Ontario in Canada and we're lucky if we get to 30 Celsius and even running it. I'm just not acclimatized to that. just the, excuse me, the difference in elevation starting at sea level and then doing the climb up to just, it's an incredible race. anybody that finishes it, I'm impressed with the fact that you won it was amazing. And then to...

Michele Graglia (40:41.48)

Right.

Jamie Roberts (40:59.201)

to go on to do those other races, those in the lab and at Tacoma like so close afterwards. Yeah, you must be riding, like you just said, riding a wave and just kind of being at peace with your running. And also the support structure. I'm sure if you don't have a good support structure, you can die. Having good pacers, having, you said a cooling strategy, a driver, all these things are just, it's so important.

Michele Graglia (41:23.136)

absolutely.

It is a must.

Jamie Roberts (41:27.869)

It's a must exactly. People that do these things unsupported is, is, you know, it's, it's absolutely.

Michele Graglia (41:33.493)

I can be lethal. Yeah, and that's what happened. I learned I learned on my skin in 2016 I went really close to to doing some stupid stuff and I was like, okay, I cannot you cannot it's such a extreme heat that you cannot Confront it you cannot face it without the proper precautions and so once you understand that And you understand that it is a necessity Then the right strategy

Jamie Roberts (41:50.187)

the

Jamie Roberts (41:55.681)

.

Michele Graglia (42:03.089)

Makes it a break set.

Jamie Roberts (42:05.921)

You know, I, that's, that's an incredible kind of recount of, of that. I want to circle back to something that you talked about earlier, um, in the interview where you talked about, you know, how ultra running back in, you know, 2011, 12, 13 was not what it was today. Trail running ultra running in your opinion, and I'm going to follow on this, but what, is it today?

Michele Graglia (42:32.126)

Well, it definitely has evolved and it definitely has evolved in an incredible way exponentially. And I can tell you like it's both good and bad for me. Of course it's good because you know there's pros and cons. The pros of course are the fact that it is becoming more of a, we cannot say mass sport, but

Jamie Roberts (42:49.268)

Interesting. Yeah.

Michele Graglia (43:01.777)

definitely more popular and when a sport becomes more popular there more interests there are more there's more attention there's more sponsors there's more excitement there's more support there's more there's more everything which builds the infrastructure builds the community builds the race builds the support even for the runners as we said before back in 2011 when i started there were probably a handful of ultra runners in the whole world

that were actually sponsored and professional, literally professional, not ambassadors, not, you know, I'm a pro, but then, you know, I get $500 a year. You know what I mean? It's like, that's not being a pro. That's just like getting some dimes here and there from the sponsors. Now there are athletes that actually make a good living. Some that are actually making very good money. And a lot of runners that actually

Jamie Roberts (43:58.784)

Yes.

Michele Graglia (44:01.229)

able to live off of it. Maybe not in a very luxurious way, but the moment that you wake up and you can commit to your craft 24-7, that's already a blessing. And that builds the sport in a way that you can see it in the race times, in the records being broken, that builds the potential.

because people are fully committed to it. You know, when you need to work a nine to five and you need to carve the time for training, you only dedicated up to a certain amount of hours per week. But when you are fully committed to it, you can train properly, you can recover properly, you do all the things the right way. So inevitably the sport evolves. The cons, the things that I don't necessarily like is the fact that

when I first started in the sport, I was fascinated by this sense of, underground feeling of doing something crazy, doing something, you know, out of the box, something that most people wouldn't even understand. People don't even, didn't even know about these things. I mean, I, like myself, I only discovered the sport at the end of 2010. So we're talking about, you know,

just over 15 years ago. And that at the very beginning is what fueled my curiosity and my desire to enter this sport and see what it was about. So there has been an evolution also in terms of motivation for me. Because of course, at the beginning it was like, who knows if I can actually run a 50-miler or 100-miler. And then now,

Pretty much everybody does it, you know what mean?

Jamie Roberts (45:55.915)

Yeah.

I know exactly what you mean. I started running when I was, I'm in my early forties. I started running when I was in my sort of late teens, early twenties. And I remember, I remember hearing about like my, always ran races, right? 10 Ks, 15 Ks. And hearing about ultras was like, it seemed like this mythical sort of event, know, you know, run through the Amazon for two days or something like, I think they had that, they had that race, right? Like so.

Michele Graglia (46:08.979)

Yeah.

Michele Graglia (46:24.462)

Yes!

Jamie Roberts (46:27.035)

It was definitely not part of like the, the common vernacular, the mainstream vernacular of running. Right. And as, and as I've, as I've ran more and then I started my podcast a long time ago and we do some other things and talking to runners, you just see like the explosion of, of, of the sport and just, the attention and the money that's being generated by a lot of the companies. So there's a lot of different ways that I can, that I can go, but I think your position kind of,

in an interesting way that you could comment on this. I saw the Black Canyon Ulters, Like a lot of money, a lot of sponsored athletes. And like you said, sponsored athletes are making more money now. What are the sponsors gonna wanna see? Race results, do they wanna see more adventures? But then I saw that they were crowdfunding for prize money or something like Western States has no prize money. Or I was looking at...

Michele Graglia (47:06.107)

Yep. Yep.

Jamie Roberts (47:24.565)

Look at what UTMB has become and what it is becoming, right? And, and the first place, you you think about the money that's being generated. Is that trickling down to just a small, small, you know, cache of runners, or is it being disseminated a little bit more, a little bit more widely, right? where do you think, where do where do you think the power lies now and in the future, the race directors, the sponsors, the companies, the athletes themselves?

Who is going to sort of shape or drive the narrative going forward with trail running, let's say in the next three to five years?

Michele Graglia (48:04.761)

Well, there are definitely some race directors that are thriving without making names, but definitely some have been able to create that base and community and thrive. But of course, the power is all in the hands of the sponsors because even to the day, as you said, as we said, more athletes are able to live off of the passion.

and being dedicated to the craft and you know, it's not just a few. Some are making more than others, but you know, when it comes down to the actual contracts, I know for a fact that even some of the very best, you know, they're not making bank, if you understand what I mean, you know, and you know, we're not, of course we cannot compare all the running contracts, for running contracts to NBA or you know,

Jamie Roberts (48:53.373)

I know ex- yes.

Michele Graglia (49:04.465)

NFL or whatever, but you know when you are a pro and You know speaking numbers and you're making 50 grand a year, you know, yeah, you're a pro But you know in the US you're kind of scratching the you know, you're scratching for living. That's the truth Unfortunately the cost of living in the US when you're making 50 grand a year and you're traveling and you're training three four five hours a day or more

Jamie Roberts (49:18.891)

Check.

It is the truth.

Michele Graglia (49:33.536)

And all of your life is involved in, you know, recovery, nutrition, taking care of your body, massages, therapies, whatever. You know, you're probably lucky if you break even at the end of the day. And so, you know, that's why you see such a, you know, I'm not talking, of course, about Killian or Gene Wamsley or people like this, but the majority of all the people that come in and out of the community or come in and out of the main scene, let's say this.

Jamie Roberts (49:55.617)

But

Michele Graglia (50:03.567)

There's a fast turnover because you know the dedication is not worth it. So if it's not fueled by the passion, you know, you're like, yeah, I'm training 25, 30 hours a week. And then at the end of the day, at the end of the year, I have $0 in my savings. Wait a minute, I probably better get a job at McDonald's and probably make more money than that, you know, and just run for fun.

Jamie Roberts (50:09.718)

Yes.

Jamie Roberts (50:29.889)

It's funny. Yeah, it's funny, it's yeah, it makes a lot of

Michele Graglia (50:32.687)

Now I'm making an exaggeration, but you know what I mean. It's it's not worth the effort. It's not worth the struggle because in many ways it is a very detrimental type of sport. You are pushing your body to limits that just about 10-15 years ago were unimaginable.

And so, you know, when you go and you push that limit a year or two or three, and then at the end of the day, you're left with nothing, you know, that a lot of people comes down to, okay, what am I doing with my life? And where am I going to see myself in five years time? Because, you know, you need to think about the fact that not only it is hard, but

You know, it's something, not only it's hard right now, but it's not sustainable in the long run. You know, you're not going to be able to be on top of your game and competitive for five, 10, 15, or 20 years. And so, you know, when the game is done, what are you left with? Coaching online? Good luck with that. You know?

Jamie Roberts (51:45.249)

Yeah, I know.

Jamie Roberts (51:54.262)

Yeah, you know what, honestly, it's no you are and I

Michele Graglia (51:56.623)

i mean i'm being honest here you know i'm being honest because i've been i've been in it

Jamie Roberts (52:02.529)

Yeah. It, no, the, you're honestly just rings true. And you're saying a lot of things that I've, I've been thinking about. And when I start to piece together all the conversations I have with athletes, right? You, you, you get to this point where, you know, the athletes you mentioned are, that's a 0.001 % of the runners and they have, excuse me, they've been doing it for a long time and have diversified how they can make money. It's not just through running, you know, so then everybody

And then if there is more sponsorship and there is more money funneling down that carrot exists there that maybe wasn't there before. It creates this, it creates this funneling effect of all these athletes. right. They're pushing themselves more this competition. I I'm afraid in some of the conversations I've had, the camaraderie will always be there, but perhaps you get less of it as everybody tries to get that sponsorship and sort of run, you know, run up the ladder. it's

Michele Graglia (52:55.087)

Everybody's fighting for that carrot.

Jamie Roberts (52:57.355)

For sure. many, you you have to, you have to love what you're doing. And I know there's other races like the, seven marathons on seven continents in seven days that Mike did. And there's the Barkley marathons, but you know, these people are, like you said, you know, working jobs and doing this, right? To be a professional, to be paid for and to be compensated well is still that elusive piece that only a few have been able to, even though the sport.

Michele Graglia (53:07.555)

Right.

Jamie Roberts (53:24.577)

you know, it continually grows horizontally. I could, you know, I find it to be fascinating. My own opinion is that getting eyeballs on, on internet, you know, internet TV, like TVs, phones to watch the sport is something that is a nut that needs to be cracked to watch somebody run for 10, 12 hours. How do you, how do you repurpose repackage that so that someone can, can enjoy that kind of just like the exact.

Michele Graglia (53:48.524)

Right, how can we make that exciting, of course?

Jamie Roberts (53:51.327)

Well, exactly. Something that I'm sure I'm not the only person that's thought about, but, okay. I could talk to you all day, but I could, yeah, no, no, this is, this is fantastic. Michelle, I literally could talk to you all day, but, I want to, I want to bring it down to something maybe not exciting, but well, I think it is exciting, but we have a running scared media question, right? So running scared is I think the idea of the unknown, the fear, everything that kind of propels us to want to do something that is out of our comfort zone. So.

Michele Graglia (53:59.372)

Likewise.

Jamie Roberts (54:20.161)

I want, I'm curious in all your, in all your, um, experiences in life and running, what is your running scared moment? Is there a time when you've been genuinely scared, fearful, a time when, you know, anxiety is, has overridden and you weren't sure you were going to able to go through it and make it a point where you were lost in the middle of the night in the desert. Is there something that you can point to is really a moment that you had to dig down deep to get through?

Michele Graglia (54:49.838)

There are countless. Coming, they can start, can start from hallucinations that felt scarily real and felt like running away from packs of wolves in my first 100 mile or two. Not knowing where to find shelter, being charged by a wild pack of horses crossing the Gobi Desert. But the most

Jamie Roberts (54:53.057)

Hahaha

Jamie Roberts (55:15.404)

my.

Michele Graglia (55:20.236)

The most, I don't want to call it scary, but the most intense moment that I lived so far, that I can think of is the encounter with the pack of wolves. Well, it was actually a one-on-one, but there were others close by. I had a one-on-one encounter with an Arctic wolf when I ran the Yukon in the middle of the, well.

Jamie Roberts (55:46.702)

my gosh.

Michele Graglia (55:49.454)

can't say in the middle of night because it was like a 20-22 hours of darkness up there in the winter, but you know, in the hours of the night, I was running alone for already over 15 hours and I, you know, just feeling the cracks of the snow and looking at the whole world in the beam of light coming from the front, you know, from the headlamp. I see these two shadows running through right in front of me and then

Jamie Roberts (55:55.347)

Yeah

Michele Graglia (56:19.179)

this third one comes through and he actually stops that right in front of me and there's this gigantic arctic wolf the eyes were like they were like yellow from the headlamp just looking at me and I just stopped in my tracks the sled that I was carrying hits me in my heels and there's this moment that you know just like I would say seconds that in a moment felt like an eternity

And we just looked at each other. I was like, I have a little Swiss knife in my back, but I'm like, what am I going to do with a giant wolf in front of me? So I just stood there. I raised my hands, not in threatening way, but in almost like in a respectful and not threatening way. And I just spoke to it. I just spoke to it in a very calm and

I keep saying respectful because it was such a profound experience in that moment with my what I would call my spirit animal and I was just like I am NOT here to interfere I'm just here, you know, you just go on on your way and I just continue on my path and it almost looked like the wolf understood me and it just without saying anything he just kept running and

Jamie Roberts (57:27.921)

And I was just like, I am not here to disappear. I am just here to go on and be on my way and just be on my path. And it almost looked like the wolf understood. And it just, without screaming, it just kept on in. And the next five days, I think I broke the world record.

Michele Graglia (57:48.204)

The next 5k I think I broke the world record, but I just thought I was about 130 140 came to the race, but I think that 20k on the snow carrying the sled. ran it sub 20 minutes for sure. What's that?

Jamie Roberts (58:03.981)

my god, that's crazy. Were you alone?

Were you alone?

Michele Graglia (58:10.184)

I was alone already for probably a good 12, 13, 14 hours. Cause I, you know, it's a type of race where you are self-supported. So there was no checkpoints. And after about 20, 25 K into the race, I just found myself alone in the front. And so from that point on, I did not see anybody until the 20th hour when I finished the race.

Jamie Roberts (58:12.134)

Jesus. honest.

Jamie Roberts (58:21.334)

Yeah.

Michele Graglia (58:38.788)

in Braeburn where was the finish line. So in the middle of that on that stretch that encounter was just like so powerful. Can't say scary but definitely profound. no no yeah yeah it could have gone wrong for sure.

Jamie Roberts (58:41.268)

my god.

Jamie Roberts (58:52.097)

You may not say scary, I will. That is, yeah, that's an story. I was out with a walk on a trail system with my kids last week and we came across like seven or eight deer out of nowhere and it scared the shit out of me. my goodness. It makes me think of the movie The Grey with Liam Neeson, know, that's okay, I get it. That's a Hollywood film.

Michele Graglia (59:13.26)

So imagine a wolf!

yes!

Jamie Roberts (59:21.897)

I completely understand, you know, I've not been up to the Yukon, but I've been up in, I'm in Ontario, right? It goes up to the Arctic Circle, right, Churchill? And I've been up pretty far north doing some tree planting and I had similar encounter with a bear, but I know what you mean where you have an encounter with an animal and really it's monumental because there's nothing around. I can, you know what I mean?

Michele Graglia (59:36.972)

Wow.

Jamie Roberts (59:49.215)

When I had this, there was nobody around. There was nothing around and you're having this encounter and there it's, it's just you and it, and, that is, and that is all, but I'm glad.

Michele Graglia (59:52.65)

That's you.

Michele Graglia (59:58.65)

And that puts you, that strips you naked. You're like, okay, there's nowhere I can hide. It's you and I.

Jamie Roberts (01:00:01.477)

absolutely. Yeah. No, that is. that's that's a great way to. Yeah, no, of course, that's great way to kind of finish the conversation. just I got to thank you for your time today. Normally we take 3040 minutes, but it's been over like over an hour, so I really appreciate it. I'm curious. You've got. Wow, like.

Michele Graglia (01:00:09.126)

It's very primal, very, very primal.

Jamie Roberts (01:00:25.953)

an incredible catalog, right? I think of a musician that's had these great albums, you know, you're like this person that's had really some interesting, interesting, interesting, interesting things that have happened in life and so in tune with them and how that informs you going forward. What is next for you? Like, what is a future goal? What are you doing in the next couple of years?

Michele Graglia (01:00:51.754)

So I give you like a little pre to that, which is very briefly, because I know we've been going long, but I actually since 2021, 2022, I had a lot of transitions and challenges and changes in my life that kind of distraught me to and kind of broke me down on a personal

Jamie Roberts (01:01:00.659)

It's okay, no, no, go.

Michele Graglia (01:01:21.002)

mental and emotional level. That's why I really wasn't able to get any results or commit to anything in these past few years. At the end of 2024, following this kind of feeling like I was scratching the bottom of the barrel, I closed all my contracts. And 2025, I actually kind of took a sabbatical. I decided not to run. And

I was like, I need to kind of reset to reset to recharge and see what's next. And at the end of the summer, it's almost like the spark was ignited again. And I decided to get back on the saddle. I am fully, I'm back in training fully, fully committed. And the only reason I'm back in training is because

I have almost like an unfinished business with one specific race and that race is the Tour de Jean.

Jamie Roberts (01:02:30.164)

Okay, all right.

Michele Graglia (01:02:31.622)

which is the hardest ultra trail in the world. It's about a 220 miler with 80,000 feet of climbing, 29,000 meters. So we're talking about 350k rays in the heart of the Alps, starting and finishing Kourmaïr at the end of the summer. So it's about two weeks after UTMB. And my only focus, I am of course gonna do

Jamie Roberts (01:02:54.996)

Okay.

Michele Graglia (01:03:00.786)

some races here and there over the summer, but over the spring and summer, but that's my ultimate goal. And then, and then we'll see what happens after that.

Jamie Roberts (01:03:08.967)

Is it?

Okay, okay. That's a great goal. Are you looking just to finish or are you looking to try and win it?

Michele Graglia (01:03:20.053)

let's just say I'm going there to do my best. Yeah. And we'll see what happens.

Jamie Roberts (01:03:23.681)

Your best. That makes amazing. Okay. So an incredible story. you have been just before we get out of here, you've been gracious enough. We're going to do a little bit of a draw or a giveaway for, uh, for your book, for one of the listeners. So I really appreciate that. That's, um, that's fantastic. So thank you. Thank you for that.

Michele Graglia (01:03:44.777)

It's been such a pleasure and I feel like the conversation just flowed when you connect and speak the same language.

Jamie Roberts (01:03:53.609)

Amazing. Michelle, thank you so much. Listen from everybody at Running Scared Media. Amazing. Good luck. We always keep in contact with the people that we have onto the show. If it's a message here, if it's just like a quick little, you know, good luck for the race that's upcoming, but all the best in the training and we'll reach out to you and check in in a little while. Okay. So have a good one.

Michele Graglia (01:04:14.441)

Thank you so much. All the best to everyone.

Jamie Roberts (01:04:16.897)

Alright, goodbye.

End.

that was amazing, man. You got to do more interviews. You got to do more interviews. Did you, did you like when you, I just have a quick question before, before I let you go. Cause you've been again, gracious with your time.