Running Buddies - Nicolas Lehmann

edit things out if I'm talking too fast let me know and I can slow it down okay okay so just give me one sec

Nicolas Lehmann (00:05.56)

Okay, perfect.

Jamie Roberts (00:52.989)

Alright, we are good.

Jamie Roberts (01:04.293)

On today's show, we're running with Nicholas Lehman, a decorated mountain and ultra runner who besides competing in some of the toughest ultra races in Europe, finished first in the UTMB PtL, a notoriously difficult and challenging race. Welcome to the show, Nicholas.

Nicolas Lehmann (01:23.735)

Thank you, Jamie, and I'm really happy to be here today. Thank you very much.

Jamie Roberts (01:29.661)

We're happy to have you. So for starters, to kind of bring the listener into your world, we kind of just ask some quick hits about what your run will be like, where you may be running, just some short questions. So where are you today? Where are you going to be running and where are you located?

Nicolas Lehmann (01:49.005)

Today I'm in Geneva, just for a run, a 30 minute run, because tomorrow I have not a big one, but a challenging one for me, 50 kilometer, but very fast. I need to say that it's not my preferred distance.

Jamie Roberts (02:10.845)

It, you know, it's funny you say that it's one of the things and I'll get into it a little bit later on, but it's one of the things that I noticed about, looking at your results and looking at the races that you've chosen to do and the ones that you've excelled at. You're right. The shorter distances are not necessarily the ones it's, it's, it's the longer distance ones that you kind of rock it up, but we'll, we'll get to that. when you're in Geneva and you're running, is that, what is something interesting about running in that space?

Nicolas Lehmann (02:40.204)

Thank you.

Jamie Roberts (02:40.381)

If you could paint a picture, what do you see right now?

Nicolas Lehmann (02:45.005)

I'm in the countryside of Geneva. Geneva is a really beautiful place to run because we are very close to the countryside and to the mountains. in 10 minutes I can go and for example I see the Mont-Saleve.

It's the closest mountain from Geneva and I can go for a in just 10 minutes. So it's city but very close to the mountains.

Jamie Roberts (03:21.957)

If somebody was going to Geneva or the countryside around, I know you're running in a specific location today, is there one trail or one area or even in the city that someone would need to go and run if they were, let's say a tourist and they wanted to go for a run to see a little bit of the city or the surrounding areas? Is there one area that you would recommend they go do?

Nicolas Lehmann (03:39.306)

Thank

Nicolas Lehmann (03:44.972)

Yes, think perhaps the trail that I will run tomorrow because you are just along a river named the Rhône and it's a very beautiful and quiet place with some section on the road, some section on the trail and it's really a place that I love.

Jamie Roberts (04:11.503)

That's good. I know you've got a big one tomorrow. So what is the fitness goal today? Is this like a shakeout? Is this just to kind of just to get in some some miles, some kilometers? What's really your goal? Just or just to get out?

Nicolas Lehmann (04:26.282)

Yeah, just to get out because I can't stay at home a day so I need to go just for five kilometers out. It's not possible to stay at home. And it's a really a challenge for me because with a beautiful weather like today I just want to go in mountains but I know that I need to rest a little bit.

Jamie Roberts (04:40.2)

I hear you, right?

Jamie Roberts (04:53.819)

I'm the same way, especially when the weather's nice, which unfortunately in Southern Ontario, it's never nice. And in Canada, it's six months of winter and just, it's a city. it's, you know, you're just battling the weather, but as soon as it gets to March or April, we do get the sunshine peeking through the clouds. And I find the same thing, even when it's not nice, I still find that I need to get myself out running and just, you know, just to kind of work up a sweat and feeling good. But I'm curious.

Nicolas Lehmann (04:57.056)

Yes.

Jamie Roberts (05:21.457)

That feeling of needing to move, that feeling of needing to run, take us back to the beginning. When did it start for you? In childhood running? Did your family run? How did you get going with all this active lifestyle?

Nicolas Lehmann (05:35.205)

Yeah, I started running about 15 years ago and at the beginning it was simply to stay fit and lose a few kilos and I was lucky enough to have a friend who introduced me to the mountain running and that once I saw this landscape it was a total revelation for me.

Jamie Roberts (05:57.447)

So when you were like, you said 15 years ago, so as a child, did you have a family that was in the mountains? Did you have a family or were you more of like, kind of, did you grow up in a city?

Nicolas Lehmann (06:10.411)

No, I was in city in the north of France and I played rugby. It's really a different sport.

Jamie Roberts (06:20.893)

No, no, I, yeah. Actually, it's funny. I lived with a gentleman from the North of France play rugby. His name was Florian. And I knew rugby was always big in the British, British Isles, right? My mom is Scottish, but he told me it was huge in France. People loved playing rugby and football, but do you still play?

Nicolas Lehmann (06:36.638)

Yeah, yeah.

Nicolas Lehmann (06:43.435)

Yeah, of course, yes, yes. yes. No, no, My son asked me sometimes to not to play rugby, but to do some sport like fighting or something like that. And I just say it's not possible with my running season because it's too risky, you know.

Jamie Roberts (07:09.071)

Yeah, exactly. Right. And I, and just with the amount that you're running, you have to, and, and, and the focus. And I want to talk about that in a minute, but I think I just want to, I want to dive right into sort of a big question here, and that is the PTL. so you won this race and, know, doing the research and just from what I've learned about mountain running, sky running, trail running, this is, this is a beast.

You know, this is two to three days. is like over 300 kilometers. How did you, how did you get to the point where a you, you wanted to run this and then you want it like how, you know, what was the preparation like? guess, I guess before we get into that, was this something that you always wanted to run or was this a natural progression of races that you'd been running before that you wanted to take on this particular challenge?

Nicolas Lehmann (07:38.794)

Thank

Nicolas Lehmann (07:48.394)

Thank you.

Nicolas Lehmann (08:06.799)

It's a little bit special because for me the BTL is not a beast but it's more like a princess. It's just the perfect mix between trail running and alpinism and I love both and it's just, I don't know how I can say it in another way, but it's just a perfect experience for me.

And I discovered the race during my first ultra trade. I spoke with someone who was on the PTL the year before and I don't know how many hours he spoke about that race and after the discussion I just said, okay, I want to run that one.

Jamie Roberts (09:02.269)

Place us on the mountain. What are you seeing? What are you hearing? What is it like to be up there?

Nicolas Lehmann (09:11.641)

You said for PTN?

Jamie Roberts (09:13.159)

For PTL, yeah.

Nicolas Lehmann (09:15.121)

It's just a little bit special because every year it's another trail to discover other parts of the Mont Blanc massif. So it's very technical and you discover always something else.

Jamie Roberts (09:37.703)

So then how did, how do you train? Cause I talked to a lot of, a lot of trail runners and a lot of, a lot of runners that have run, your, you know, the bad water, the Moabs, like the, the, the longer really like, duration distance events. how do you, how do get yourself ready for this training event? And, and I kind of want to get a little bit granular on this. How, like, was it a year in training? Is it five days a week?

Is it two years of training? it seven days a week? How, what's the, what's the runway for this necklace?

Nicolas Lehmann (10:14.381)

Yes, I prefer to speak about a lifestyle rather than training. Of course, I do intensive sessions and I structure my weeks, but the most important thing for me is simply spending as much time as possible outside in the mountains. So it's really a lifestyle.

Jamie Roberts (10:20.369)

Okay.

Nicolas Lehmann (10:39.442)

and to be outside as much as possible.

Jamie Roberts (10:43.847)

So you ran this with a partner. What role did they play? Either as a support, as a motivation? How important is it to have that person with you?

Nicolas Lehmann (11:00.041)

It's really important because it's a team race. So we have run together so much that we don't need many words during the race to understand each other. So each team has its unique dynamic. It's a little bit like a couple, you You have to find your personal way to function when things get difficult.

Jamie Roberts (11:21.799)

Yeah.

Jamie Roberts (11:28.005)

Absolutely. So then you finish, you finish PTL. then did running, did running change for you after that, after that, that great result, was there more attention? Did you, did you get to a place where you said, yeah, I can accomplish that. I want to, I want to move on to the next challenge. How did, how did either your running, your physical running or your mental approach change after you had completed that?

Nicolas Lehmann (11:33.425)

Yes.

Nicolas Lehmann (11:58.088)

I think it's exactly the same because the fact that you don't know is that I won the PTL first time in 2017. That's the second time I won it in 2023. And yes, for me, it's just the place where I want to be and...

Jamie Roberts (12:09.714)

Yeah.

Nicolas Lehmann (12:24.847)

I will run it again in six months and yes, it's normal. It's just, as I said before,

Jamie Roberts (12:34.215)

Do you know what it's like you said, you're gonna, you want to run it again and it's a lifestyle. And then, you know, they always say like when you're, when you're wanting to change something like, or, you know, maybe quit drinking or smoking, you need to make a lifestyle change. I guess in that sense, running these big long races over and over again is just part of your lifestyle. So there's that easy sort of transition. Do any of the other events, just for the,

that week of events at UTMB, do they interest you at all?

Nicolas Lehmann (13:05.96)

Yes, I won, I ran last three days an event in Swiss named UTMB Eiger 250 km and I will run it again because Grindelwald is like Chamonix in France, just a real beautiful place with amazing landscape and...

with a lot of technical sections and yes I really like that place.

Jamie Roberts (13:43.997)

So that one, I think you said is 250. So we talked about this just, I think before we came on in terms of distances or maybe just in the quick hit section there, I've noticed with some research that you excel at those longer distances. why do you think that is? Can you take us through, why do you think, is it your physiology? Is it the way you're training for stamina?

What is it about how you're getting yourself prepared that makes you excel at the really, really long ultra distances?

Nicolas Lehmann (14:22.183)

I'm not sure but as I said I am really often outside and last weekend for example I was just out for two days of alpinism so I really like to be a long time outside to have time to think about a lot of things.

So for me it's just spending time and be where I want to be. So it's not a race, you know. It's just...

Jamie Roberts (14:55.771)

I love you.

Jamie Roberts (15:01.213)

You have such a laid back sort of demeanor, right? Are you like that just in your right? Like, you know, you have this very cerebral quality about when you're talking about your running, not, not matter of fact, but just, yeah, this is what I do. I like that. So you clearly are committed and, but you're also, you would consider yourself semi-professional, I guess. Is that what that.

Nicolas Lehmann (15:14.273)

Yeah.

Nicolas Lehmann (15:27.494)

No, no, no, I can't say it's semi-professional because if you want we can speak about more partnership with some brands but it's more filling with someone and yes, more filling with someone, with products but I don't want to be, how I can say, to be...

Jamie Roberts (15:55.025)

Professional but pro.

Nicolas Lehmann (15:55.429)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, because my... Yeah, how can I say?

Jamie Roberts (16:06.481)

Well, I, you know what I, I'm to jump in and I think my question is like you, can, you can look at the UTMB index, but I, know, even just the eye test of looking at your results and the frequency that you're racing and the, like the types of races that you're doing. So how, like, I know I understand high level athletes like yourself, even if not fully professional or professional, there is,

considerations, right? There are things that, you know, need to take precedence when you're, when you're training. Like you just talked about the antidote with your son, right? And when it's race season, how, how do you balance the rigorous training for the running that you want to do with, with like a full-time job with a family? I find, I'm always interested in how athletes, you know, are,

Nicolas Lehmann (16:40.453)

Thank

Nicolas Lehmann (16:53.797)

Yeah.

Jamie Roberts (17:01.061)

are managing that, especially with such a daunting like race load. And I like, have two kids myself and, a full time job and I do this and you know, sometimes I'm barely hanging on. So how do you, how do you manage that? How do you balance that?

Nicolas Lehmann (17:07.173)

Yeah. I need to be organized, but really organized because sometimes it's to be able to do a training. It's just about 10 minutes. So.

I need to plan everything.

Jamie Roberts (17:38.525)

Yeah, not so much was, you know, it doesn't lead itself to a lot of like spontaneity, I guess, right? Everything has to, because when you go and train, it's hours on end, right? And are you, you're traveling, right? When you're training at times.

Nicolas Lehmann (17:54.692)

Sorry, could you repeat the question?

Jamie Roberts (17:59.567)

you are, you're traveling sometimes, right? To different areas.

Nicolas Lehmann (18:02.533)

Yeah, yeah, but not frequently. Sometimes just...

Jamie Roberts (18:08.985)

Okay. Yeah. It just, you know, I just find the, the hours on end to get yourselves ready for these and, know, the nutrition and, are you, are you actively, do you work with a coach right now?

Nicolas Lehmann (18:23.237)

In the past, yes, but right now, no, because it's more easy for me to plan my session alone. Sometimes I need to stay at work or something like that. And it's easier for me to plan alone all my organization.

Jamie Roberts (18:32.145)

Yeah.

Jamie Roberts (18:48.721)

Yeah. So, okay. So I want to shift gears to, to kind of like more of, more of like a, kind of like a macro look. And it's a question that I ask a lot of, of the athletes that we, that we have on here, because after competing in ultras for as long as you have and, and seeing the growth of the sport, where do you think, or how do you think running is kind of professionalized in the last little while?

Nicolas Lehmann (19:08.612)

Jamie Roberts (19:17.913)

And when I say, you know, let's say a 10 year span from when you first started, what are you, what are the differences that you see even at UTMB, the events outside of just there being more people? how have, how have you seen this sport grow?

Nicolas Lehmann (19:37.923)

It's a good question. I'm specifically for or against big organizations, but I choose projects that look like me, you know. For example, I don't always recognize myself in huge events like the UTMB 100 mile race because there are just too many people for my test.

Jamie Roberts (20:01.191)

Yeah.

Nicolas Lehmann (20:07.524)

So sometimes I prefer to just grab my shoes on a Friday after work and go for a solo tour of the Mont Blanc. It happens sometimes and no one can stop me doing that. So it's not a problem for me that if someone else wants to run in the UTMP event, know, everyone can choose their own path.

Jamie Roberts (20:31.751)

Do you see, and this is, I understand this is solely your opinion. Do you think that from what you see, do you think that's inherently a good thing of the growth in the sport? Or because I've definitely heard different sides of the, of the argument here. Is it, is the growth in the sport a positive thing or does that take away from the niche nature of ultra running? Cause I remember when I started running.

Nicolas Lehmann (20:52.291)

For me, it's not.

Jamie Roberts (21:00.527)

ultra marathons were something that was like just something very different, very, you know, it wasn't, it wasn't proliferated in the mainstream, like vernacular in any way, mainstream media. Do we see this as a, as a positive thing, the growth of the sport?

Nicolas Lehmann (21:21.357)

positive or negative, know, everyone can find their own way.

For me, it's not a problem if this kind of organisation of the growth of the sport can give inspiration to a young generation. It's a good thing for me, for example.

Jamie Roberts (21:53.031)

That's actually a good point. And one that is not often made in terms of role modeling for younger runners that are coming up and seeing that there could be a path for more visibility, potential for, you know, even just becoming a runner that can be sustained through their profession, which was very, very difficult, I think, even just a few years ago.

Nicolas Lehmann (22:16.259)

.

Jamie Roberts (22:19.033)

You know, your journey is going to take you to some races and this summer, really quickly, I know that you had your one sponsorship with Wise, but you're just getting hooked up with MTC, Mount to Coast. Can you take us just really quickly how that all came about? Because that's exciting for you.

Nicolas Lehmann (22:36.425)

Yes.

Nicolas Lehmann (22:41.634)

Yeah, it's exciting and for me my partnership with some brands it's all about the feeling with the products and especially with the people. When I meet Mountain to Coast, I meet first someone really involved in ultra running for years.

So that's the reason why we discuss and it's not a process like you can find in other...

part of the economy, know, it's more about sharing the same passion about running.

Jamie Roberts (23:33.659)

Yeah, absolutely. And I know that they've been good enough to do a little giveaway for us later that we can talk about. But yeah, I've actually heard very good things about the product from some other runners. I think that's an exciting thing for you going forward, Okay, so we always take a little bit of time and I ask you...

Nicolas Lehmann (23:53.569)

Yeah.

Jamie Roberts (24:02.351)

what we call a running scared media question. So we are running scared media and part of the reason this whole thing came to fruition, you know, now five, six years ago is, I was very intrigued and interested in, the feeling of, the adrenaline rush when you're maybe fearful or scared to propel you forward, like, like literally and figuratively. So can you share a moment in your run, your runs?

any races when you're on the mountain alone or even with somebody? Has there been a moment where you have had a fear, a visceral feeling of being kind of uneasy in a moment and that kind of propelling you forward or even just a moment in a race where you've had a mental fatigue, a mental moment where you're not sure you're going to be able to get past it? Nicholas, what has been your running scared moment?

Nicolas Lehmann (24:41.288)

Okay.

Nicolas Lehmann (24:47.553)

I think the more years go by, the more anecdotes I have. don't think if it's a good thing or not. And if I look back at the 2023 PTL,

Jamie Roberts (25:05.563)

Yeah

Nicolas Lehmann (25:16.546)

A real moment of vulnerability was the very last descent. We were on a very sharp and exposed ridge with loose rocks. And we had been moving for three days with almost no sleep. So your balance is not perfect. And a mistake was absolutely not allowed because of the void of both sides. So for me, it's one of my

Jamie Roberts (25:35.985)

Yeah.

Nicolas Lehmann (25:46.463)

You scare your moment in a trade-won race.

Jamie Roberts (25:52.189)

No, that, that, makes a lot of sense. I'm reading a great book, Matthew Walker. It's entitled, why you sleep. And it's interesting how, a, how critical it is to just everything you talked like balance and just being sort of in the moment and not having hallucinations. but also to the fact that you can never kind of catch up on your sleep, right? So when you, when you

Nicolas Lehmann (26:18.806)

Yeah.

Jamie Roberts (26:20.581)

When people are engaged in these, these long events, it should be noted you're pushing your body to the limit. But you know, you, like, this is not just we're out for a run on the mountain. Like there are a lot of things to consider and it can be dangerous. And I think that's why you call them ultras. So, you know, I just want to, I want to ask you one thing, maybe like, a technical question and just because you mentioned it in,

Nicolas Lehmann (26:29.347)

Yeah, yeah, screw.

Nicolas Lehmann (26:40.402)

No.

Jamie Roberts (26:49.501)

that quick little story with PTL 2023, we don't really get into the technical aspects on this show. I'm more interested in larger sort of ideas. But in terms of running downhill, it's a very technical thing. What do you do when you run downhill? And almost set it up for us a technical way. What's your body like? Are you leaning forward, leaning backwards? What are some things to consider?

Nicolas Lehmann (27:05.303)

Yes.

Nicolas Lehmann (27:13.931)

Thank you.

Jamie Roberts (27:19.109)

It's just, it's a question that I've gotten asked from some of our listeners, you know, some tips or tricks in terms of fast downhill. I know it's different for everybody, but what works for you?

Nicolas Lehmann (27:22.24)

It depends on the race. example, if it's very technical, it's mandatory not to too fast because it's too dangerous. And in long races, it's another problem. You will run for a long time, so you need to...

be really careful about your muscle, you know. So you don't need, it's not a good thing to go too fast in descent, but it's not for technical reason, it's just to preserve your body.

Jamie Roberts (28:07.429)

Absolutely. So you mentioned some races coming up, but what is, what is one really big goal that you have that you would like to accomplish? Maybe, you know, tech, a running goal, but maybe just something, a goal in athletics in general, something. And we always do like a, a one to three year timeframe. What is something that you are, you're focused in on? If you can't tell us and you've got to keep it secret, I get that.

Nicolas Lehmann (28:35.199)

Yeah, of course. For example, for this year, I have three big races, one in La Réunion. It's not the Diagonal des Fous, but just something very similar, just a little bit longer. I will win again on UTMB-Ager and again on the PTL, but I have another big project and we will...

make a documentary. I want to try to do four FKT in a row at the Mont Blanc using four different paths to go to the summit and go back to the valley in four days. So it's more between alpinism and trail running.

Jamie Roberts (29:30.023)

That sounds incredible. Has that been in the works for a while or something recent? How far are you along in the process in terms of attempting that?

Nicolas Lehmann (29:41.534)

I think about an idea two years ago and it's really important for me because I discovered the mountain and running in the same massif. So I think about something to do, just to be conscious, just to... How can I say?

to represent the past from the beginning of my career or if I can say to now.

Jamie Roberts (30:19.207)

Yeah.

And you've got a documentary crew ready to go and they'll be up there with you doing it, taking footage and then.

Nicolas Lehmann (30:30.26)

Yes, it's little bit special because all the four FKTs will be done without any assistance, as an unsupported mode. So I need to be alone during the FKT and we will react some sections with a cinematic view.

Jamie Roberts (30:40.97)

I'm supported. Yeah.

Nicolas Lehmann (30:55.57)

we will react after the record.

Jamie Roberts (30:58.461)

Wow, that sounds amazing. Not only is it going to be kind of exhilarating just seeing, getting that done, but I can just see the scenery and just the visuals that will come with that. think that will be very well received.

Nicolas Lehmann (31:15.07)

Thank you.

Jamie Roberts (31:19.355)

Yeah, no, no, no. It's great. Great. I'll be checking back in to see if we can, you know, we get a pre-screening on that, but no, that's amazing. We're kind of just at the end. two things. The one thing is I always like to, you know, advice is perhaps not the right word. words of wisdom for the listener, somebody that is just thinking about starting running, perhaps somebody that is

a serious runner and is considering moving into ultra marathons. Anything that you can share that you've learned over what's really 15 years now of running.

Nicolas Lehmann (31:56.285)

I think if I could just say one thing is just to keep a childlike naivety you know in your project and all will be will be easier.

Jamie Roberts (32:13.935)

It's yeah, just to stay innocent. You know, innocence, innocence, right? No, but it's, you know, it is it is so true. Just my daughter is involved in something and she's been very innocent until she had her first moment. She's in dance and she had her first moment where I think the innocence broke apart a little bit.

Nicolas Lehmann (32:17.853)

Exactly.

Nicolas Lehmann (32:40.701)

Hmm.

Jamie Roberts (32:40.829)

And the reality of some of the pressures of competing actually hit her. So I think it's a really, it's a salient point that you bring up. Try to stay innocent, right? Often our mind can be flooded with lots of noise that we need to push out. So I think that is a really, really good point. And to finish, we mentioned it earlier, but Mounticoast has been good enough to...

Nicolas Lehmann (32:54.213)

Yeah.

Jamie Roberts (33:09.297)

to put us up for a pair of, I think a pair of shoes and a little bit of a giveaway with the episode, maybe to, you know, to commemorate you joining the crew. So I want to absolutely thank you for helping with that and Mount to Coast. And yeah, that's fantastic. We will, you know, when we release this, if you're listening to it, it's already been released. We'll have some details in the show notes in terms of how people can enter into that. But that is...

Nicolas Lehmann (33:24.593)

with pleasure.

Jamie Roberts (33:38.973)

That's amazing. again, thanks to Mount Tocco. So we'll make sure to shout them out. Nicholas, thank you for taking the...

Nicolas Lehmann (33:40.572)

Yeah.

Nicolas Lehmann (33:44.157)

If I can give a last advice for the Montecos model, choose the H1. The gravel one is just amazing.

Jamie Roberts (33:57.821)

Folks, there you have it, right? Straight from Nicholas Laban. No, that's amazing. We'll do that. We'll be in contact with this as we kind of get this thing ready, but that's fantastic. Listen, thank you for sitting down with us, a chat. I hope your run has gone well. Again, your...

Nicolas Lehmann (34:05.393)

Jamie Roberts (34:24.763)

Your outlook on running your chill demeanor is, is, so refreshing and it was great talking with you all the best. Good luck with your races going forward. And I say this to every guest. you know, we, you know, we really appreciate you taking the time and we're going to keep in contact. We'll send a quick little message out to find how things are going. And we really look forward to hearing more about the documentary. Okay. So Nicholas, we'll keep in contact. Thank you very much. Okay. Goodbye.

Nicolas Lehmann (34:37.628)

Thank

Thank

Thank you very much, Jamie. Thank you. See you. Bye.

Jamie Roberts (34:54.876)

Bye.

Jamie Roberts (34:58.265)

And.